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Date: Thu, 1 Dec :07 -0600
From: Nicolas Williams
To: "KAMADA Ken'ichi"
Cc: ietf-kink@vpnc.org, ietf-krb-wg@anl.gov
Subject: Re: Last Call: 'Kerberized Internet Negotiation of Keys (KINK)' to Proposed Standard
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On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 at 01:14:31PM +0900, KAMADA Ken'ichi wrote:
> Thank you for your review.
And you for your reply.
> At Tue, 29 Nov :38 -0600,
> Nicolas Williams
- Rekeying
Rekeying Security Associations
KINK requires the initiator of an SA to be responsible for rekeying
First, "requires" isn't proper RFC2119 terminology, and proper
RFC2119 terminology in this regard is missing in that section.
would be fine, except that...
...second, since KINK allows for user-to-user Kerberos V exchanges I
see no reason that responders couldn't, if they wanted to, act as
initiators, so there's a question, I think, as to whether responders
are simply not allowed to do that or merely expected to not do that.
Or did I miss something else?
> A responder can become an initiator (with U2U if necessary) and it's
> possible to rekey from the responder, but it is not expected in my
> opinion.
> KINK could disallow the responder to rekey, but still, the responder
> can make new SAs (pretending independent of rekeying) and delete old
> ones, and it cannot be distinguished from rekeying from the initiator.
> So I don't think "disallowing" and "expecting-not-to-do" have much
> difference in this case.
Allow me to re-phrase: is the "requires" above intended to have the
force of "REQUIRED"?
If not, might it be better to replace it with
"expects"?
"KINK expects the initiator of an SA to be responsible for rekeying..."
would not have confused me... :)
Third, even if responders typically could not act as initiators (say,
for implementation-specific issues), one might still want some
notification that an SA has expired and traffic needs it to be
> KINK is based on IKE(v1) and negotiates SA lifetime (see the first
> paragraph of section 3.2 of kink-10), so the initiator should notice
> SA expiration and rekey it.
Are initiators REQUIRED to rekey expired SAs, even when no outgoing
packets require them?
If not, how could the initiator know that there
are no packets on the server side in need of a rekeyed SA?
- Section 4.2.4.
How does cross-realm user-to-user work?
Also, this doesn't make sense:
When the requested principal is
"principal@REALM", ...
Isn't "principal@REALM" pretty much the only form that the requested
principal name can take?
Or are there other forms?
Where are those
described?
> That paragraph is poorly worded, sorry.
The string "principal" and
> "REALM" in the quoted sentence correspond to the same strings in that
> sentence.
So, what I wanted to say was:
- The returned TGT MUST be a non-inter-realm TGT of the requested
realm, and
- The cname/crealm of the TGT MUST match the requested principal.
> I'd propose to change the paragraph with this one:
PrincName -- The name of the principal which the initiator want to
communicate with.
It is assumed that the initiator knows the
responder's principal name (including the realm name) in the same
way as the non-User-to-User case.
The returned TGT MUST NOT be an
inter-realm TGT and it's cname and crealm MUST match the requested
principal name, so that the initiator can rendezvous with the
responder at the responder's realm.
Yes, I like this.
- Section 4.2.4.
How are the values of PrincName constructed?
they DER encodings of
SEQUENCE { pname PrincipalName, realm, RealmName}?
Or are they an "unparsed" representation of principal names following
rules similar to those listed in RFC4121?
This is very simply dealt with by saying that the contents of
PrincName is given by section 2.1.3 of RFC1964, but without the
GSS-API exported name token header.
> I don't have noticed it wasn't defined.
Thank you for pointing it
I assumed "unparsed" representation, so your deal sounds good
Ok, so add text like this to your text above:
PrincName values are octet string representations of a principal and
realm name formatted just like the to the octet string used in the
"NAME" component of GSS-API [RFC2743] exported name token for the
Kerberos V GSS-API mechanism [RFC1964].
See RFC1964,
section 2.1.3.
You'll have to add a normative reference to RFC1964.
And you'll have to
add an informative reference to RFC2743 (informative because the text in
RFC1964 is sufficient to implement figure out how to encode PrincName).
From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Thu Dec 01 10:55:06 2005
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Date: Thu, 1 Dec :32 -0600
From: Nicolas Williams
To: "KAMADA Ken'ichi"
Cc: ietf-kink@vpnc.org, ietf-krb-wg@anl.gov
Subject: Re: Last Call: 'Kerberized Internet Negotiation of Keys (KINK)' to Proposed Standard
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On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 at 01:14:31PM +0900, KAMADA Ken'ichi wrote:
> At Tue, 29 Nov :38 -0600,
> Nicolas Williams
- Section 5.3 limits the IDs that can be used with KINK to
address/subnet/address range IDs.
I think this is too limited, it
seems likely to make KINK very difficult to use.
I'd rather that a new ID type be defined that corresponds to Kerberos
V principal names and/or that ID_FQDN and ID_RFC822_ADDR be allowed
and a simple algorithm be recommended for matching principals and
> Section 5.3 says that IDs in KINK identify traffic to be protected
> (like TSs in IKEv2).
Peer's identifiers are pricnipal names provided
> in AP exchange.
(Note that AP_REQ and AP_REP are always exchanged
> when negotiating SAs.)
Right, I was confused -- Sam explained how I got confused.
It would be nice if KINK supported IKEv2-style traffic selectors, but I
assume that's out of scope here.
Thu Dec 01 14:52:37 2005
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SEC: Kerberized Internet Negotiation of Keys (KINK)
draft-ietf-kink-kink-11.txt
> Responsible AD: Sam Hartman
> Reviewer: Joel Halpern
Wed Dec 14 03:22:24 2005
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Subject: [Jeffrey Hutzelman] Followup on KINK last call
From: Sam Hartman
Date: Wed, 14 Dec :58 -0500
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[Jeff points out that we also need to specify the key to use.
It is presumably the session key because that's the only key involved.
Some discussion related to the last call of draft-ietf-kink-kink-10.txt was
copied to the Kerberos WG list, but I'm afraid part of it may have missed
both the IETF and IESG lists.
In particular...
- This comment appears to have gone unaddressed in -11:
> I did notice that section 4.2.7 KINK_ENCRYPT does not specify what key is
> used, only that it "is encrypted using the encryption algorithm specified
> by the etype of the session key"
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Subject: [KAMADA Ken'ichi] Re: [Gen-art] Gen-Art LC Review:
draft-ietf-kink-kink-11.txt
From: Sam Hartman
Date: Wed, 14 Dec :23 -0500
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Message-ID:
From: "KAMADA Ken'ichi"
Cc: hartmans-ietf@mit.edu, brc@zurich.ibm.com,
Shouichi.Sakane@jp.yokogawa.com, Ken-ichi.Kamada@jp.yokogawa.com,
jtrostle@world.std.com, ,
Subject: Re: [Gen-art] Gen-Art LC Review: draft-ietf-kink-kink-11.txt
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At Tue, 13 Dec :41 -0500,
"Joel M. Halpern"
> But the document never actually states that encapsulation rule.
> I could tell from the examples that was what you intended.
> But the words need to actually say it.
> The current text of KINK_ENCRYPT just states that it carries some
> sub-values.
It does not state what the sub-values are, nor that if used it
> should carry all content except the KINK_AP_REQ.
I see your point.
I added a paragraph about the content of KINK_ENCRYPT in section 6.
Some notes:
1) As I also think message construction is suitable for section 6
(as with Sakane-san), I added the paragraph there.
2) DELETE and STATUS messages may also contain a KINK_ENCRYPT
I'd like to add the description in the generic part of
section 6 rather than in the subsection of each command/reply.
BTW, when clarifying KINK_ENCRYPT, I noticed that section 6.3
indicates that KINK_ENCRYPT in a CREATE message is optional.
I suspect this is a mistake.
Mike, could you confirm this is not intentional?
If not, I'd like to change that as well.
Section 4.2.7., para. 1:
The KINK_ENCRYPT payload encapsulates other payloads and is encrypted
using the encryption algorithm specified by the etype of the session
This payload MUST be the final payload in the message.
encrypt payloads MUST be encrypted before the final KINK checksum is
The KINK_ENCRYPT payload encapsulates other KINK payloads and is
encrypted using the session key and the algorithm specified by its
This payload MUST be the final one in the outer payload chain
of the message.
The KINK_ENCRYPT payload MUST be encrypted before
the final KINK checksum is applied.
Section 6., para. 1:
All commands, responses, and acknowledgments are bound together by
the XID field of the message header.
The XID is normally a
monotonically incrementing field, and is used by the initiator to
differentiate between outstanding requests to a responder.
field does not provide replay protection as that functionality is
provided by the Kerberos mechanisms.
In addition, commands and
responses MUST use a cryptographic checksum over the entire message
if the two peers share a key via a ticket exchange.
All commands, responses, and acknowledgments are bound together by
the XID field of the message header.
The XID is normally a
monotonically incrementing field, and is used by the initiator to
differentiate between outstanding requests to a responder.
field does not provide replay protection as that functionality is
provided by the Kerberos mechanisms.
In addition, commands and
responses MUST use a cryptographic checksum over the entire message
In all cases in this section, if a message contains a KINK_AP_REQ or
KINK_AP_REP payload, other KINK payloads MAY be encapsulated in a
KINK_ENCRYPT payload.
KINK_ISAKMP payloads in a CREATE message and
in a successful REPLY message MUST be encapsulated.
Section 6.3., para. 2:
CREATE KINK Header
KINK_AP_REQ
[KINK_ENCRYPT]
KINK_ISAKMP payloads
SA Payload
Proposal Payloads
Transform Payloads
Nonce Payload (Ni)
[IDci, IDcr]
[Notification Payloads]
CREATE KINK Header
KINK_AP_REQ
KINK_ENCRYPT
KINK_ISAKMP payloads
SA Payload
Proposal Payloads
Transform Payloads
Nonce Payload (Ni)
[IDci, IDcr]
[Notification Payloads]
Section 6.3., para. 4:
REPLY KINK Header
KINK_AP_REP
[KINK_ENCRYPT]
KINK_ISAKMP payloads
SA Payload
Proposal Payloads
Transform Payload
[Nonce Payload (Nr)]
[IDci, IDcr]
[Notification Payloads]
REPLY KINK Header
KINK_AP_REP
KINK_ENCRYPT
KINK_ISAKMP payloads
SA Payload
Proposal Payloads
Transform Payload
[Nonce Payload (Nr)]
[IDci, IDcr]
[Notification Payloads]
KAMADA Ken'ichi
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From: "KAMADA Ken'ichi"
To: ietf-kink@vpnc.org
Subject: Re: [Jeffrey Hutzelman] Followup on KINK last call
In-Reply-To:
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At Wed, 14 Dec :58 -0500,
Sam Hartman
> Some discussion related to the last call of draft-ietf-kink-kink-10.txt was
> copied to the Kerberos WG list, but I'm afraid part of it may have missed
> both the IETF and IESG lists.
In particular...
> - This comment appears to have gone unaddressed in -11:
> > I did notice that section 4.2.7 KINK_ENCRYPT does not specify what key is
> > used, only that it "is encrypted using the encryption algorithm specified
> > by the etype of the session key"
sorry for missing that in -11.
The proposed change quoted below also addressed this.
At Wed, 14 Dec :45 +0900,
KAMADA Ken'ichi
> Section 4.2.7., para. 1:
The KINK_ENCRYPT payload encapsulates other payloads and is encrypted
using the encryption algorithm specified by the etype of the session
This payload MUST be the final payload in the message.
encrypt payloads MUST be encrypted before the final KINK checksum is
The KINK_ENCRYPT payload encapsulates other KINK payloads and is
encrypted using the session key and the algorithm specified by its
This payload MUST be the final one in the outer payload chain
of the message.
The KINK_ENCRYPT payload MUST be encrypted before
the final KINK checksum is applied.
KAMADA Ken'ichi
From paulemiller@atlantic-toboggan.com Wed Dec 14 19:19:06 2005
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To: Sam Hartman
CC: ietf-kink@vpnc.org
Subject: Re: [KAMADA Ken'ichi] Re: [Gen-art] Gen-Art LC Review: draft-ietf-kink-kink-11.txt
References:
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Sam Hartman wrote:
> Any objections?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> Subject:
> Re: [Gen-art] Gen-Art LC Review: draft-ietf-kink-kink-11.txt
> "KAMADA Ken'ichi"
> Wed, 14 Dec :45 +0900
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> At Tue, 13 Dec :41 -0500,
> "Joel M. Halpern"
>>But the document never actually states that encapsulation rule.
>>I could tell from the examples that was what you intended.
>>But the words need to actually say it.
>>The current text of KINK_ENCRYPT just states that it carries some=20
>>sub-values.
It does not state what the sub-values are, nor that if use=
>>should carry all content except the KINK_AP_REQ.
> I see your point.
> I added a paragraph about the content of KINK_ENCRYPT in section 6.
> Some notes:
1) As I also think message construction is suitable for section 6
(as with Sakane-san), I added the paragraph there.
2) DELETE and STATUS messages may also contain a KINK_ENCRYPT
I'd like to add the description in the generic part of
section 6 rather than in the subsection of each command/reply.
> BTW, when clarifying KINK_ENCRYPT, I noticed that section 6.3
> indicates that KINK_ENCRYPT in a CREATE message is optional.
> I suspect this is a mistake.
> Mike, could you confirm this is not intentional?
> If not, I'd like to change that as well.
It was intentional that KINK_ENCRYPT was optional -- for everything.
I don't really feel very strongly about it at this point other than
general nervousness about making big changes in the document at
this point with a good possibility that the document will be
inconsistent.
Wed Dec 14 21:37:26 2005
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From: "KAMADA Ken'ichi"
To: ietf-kink@vpnc.org
Subject: Re: [KAMADA Ken'ichi] Re: [Gen-art] Gen-Art LC Review: draft-ietf-kink-kink-11.txt
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At Wed, 14 Dec :14 -0800,
Michael Thomas
> > BTW, when clarifying KINK_ENCRYPT, I noticed that section 6.3
> > indicates that KINK_ENCRYPT in a CREATE message is optional.
> > I suspect this is a mistake.
> > Mike, could you confirm this is not intentional?
> > If not, I'd like to change that as well.
> It was intentional that KINK_ENCRYPT was optional -- for everything.
> I don't really feel very strongly about it at this point other than
> general nervousness about making big changes in the document at
> this point with a good possibility that the document will be
> inconsistent.
OK, I withdraw the latter part of the changes.
New proposal is here.
Section 4.2.7., para. 1:
The KINK_ENCRYPT payload encapsulates other payloads and is encrypted
using the encryption algorithm specified by the etype of the session
This payload MUST be the final payload in the message.
encrypt payloads MUST be encrypted before the final KINK checksum is
The KINK_ENCRYPT payload encapsulates other KINK payloads and is
encrypted using the session key and the algorithm specified by its
This payload MUST be the final one in the outer payload chain
of the message.
The KINK_ENCRYPT payload MUST be encrypted before
the final KINK checksum is applied.
Section 6., para. 1:
All commands, responses, and acknowledgments are bound together by
the XID field of the message header.
The XID is normally a
monotonically incrementing field, and is used by the initiator to
differentiate between outstanding requests to a responder.
field does not provide replay protection as that functionality is
provided by the Kerberos mechanisms.
In addition, commands and
responses MUST use a cryptographic checksum over the entire message
if the two peers share a key via a ticket exchange.
All commands, responses, and acknowledgments are bound together by
the XID field of the message header.
The XID is normally a
monotonically incrementing field, and is used by the initiator to
differentiate between outstanding requests to a responder.
field does not provide replay protection as that functionality is
provided by the Kerberos mechanisms.
In addition, commands and
responses MUST use a cryptographic checksum over the entire message
In all cases in this section, if a message contains a KINK_AP_REQ or
KINK_AP_REP payload, other KINK payloads MAY be encapsulated in a
KINK_ENCRYPT payload.
KAMADA Ken'ichi
Thu Dec 15 03:18:21 2005
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